Photographers' Rights Violated or Were They Breaking the Law?
18th April 2009
I wrote the following and sent it to various news organizations and also to Westfied, which owns Horton Plaza. And yes, it doesn't show much, but I am angered and disgusted, but if I were a good girl, I would just "suck it up." Guess I'm not a good girl.
Photographers' Rights Violated or Were They Breaking the Law?
Two Local Fine-Art Photographers Escorted out of Horton Plaza by Alleged Homeland Security Employees
by Carole Duebbert
Saturday, April 18, SAN DIEGO: At approximately 11am in Horton Plaza, a man in plain clothes approached me and said that I was being escorted out of Horton Plaza for taking pictures. He said I had been told what the photography policy was, that I had disregarded it and, consequently, that I had to leave Horton Plaza and never come back.
He was correct; I had heard the policy. Approximately an hour before, a security guard (aka a man in uniform) had told a group of us (award-winning fine art photographers) that we could only photograph, if one of us was in the picture.
We went our separate ways and an hour later, I was detained by a man in plain clothes, whom I had never seen before. I didn't ask him for ID. Neither did he ask me for ID.
He said that policy prohibited me from taking pictures of stores and refused to look at the digital images that I had taken of myself reflected in a store window. I don't even recall the name of the store, since that wasn't the subject of my photo.
The man was tall, white-haired, wearing sunglasses and dressed in casual business wear: white shirt, dark slacks, nice shoes (with tassels, though I wasn't paying attention).
I am I am 5'2'', 115 pounds, and was wearing a white top, jeans, white socks, and athletic shoes. I was carrying a camera bag, with a water bottle attached to it, a Canon digital SLR, and a plastic Holga camera.
When I requested that he escort me to the Horton Plaza clock, because the photographers in the group I was with were meeting there at noon, the man agreed. He said that another photographer and security person was also being escorted off the Horton Plaza premises and they would join up with us at the clock.
On the way to there, I started asking what the reason for the photographing policy. He said that businesses did not want to be photographed and since I hadn't adhered to the policy, I must leave.
The word "loitering" also came up. I hadn't bought anything and could thus be considered a loiterer. When I asked permission to buy something, he said no. I was basically a persona non grata and not welcome back.
At the clock, I requested permission to wait for the others in the group. He said he'd wait with us. I started sitting down, since the others weren't due for another 45 minutes.
Another plain-clothed man, who had joined us, said that sitting was not allowed. I got up and said that I wasn't "so young anymore." The white-haired man said that he was twice my age (i.e., what was I complaining about). When I said that I was 58, he said that he was 70 and to "suck it up."
He also gave me a piece of paper containing the Horton Plaza policies. To my recollection, the policies of the plaza were nowhere publicly displayed in the plaza.
Then the other detained photographer and his escort arrived. At this point, facing us were four men: the 70-year-old man; the uniformed man who initially told us the "policy"; another uniformed man, whom I had never seen before; and another plain-clothed man, whom I had also never seen before.
The second plain-clothed man started talking, using words like "Homeland Security and FBI." I don't recall exactly what he said, except that we were in the vicinity of Homeland Security and the FBI.
I didn't ask why this was important. My understanding from what he said was that they were part of Homeland Security; the older plain-clothed man said that I should "look it up" on the web).
My photography colleague had gotten the business card from his escort. I noticed that the white-haired man was responding positively to my colleague, so I stopped talking and made eye contact only to the three young men with him.
Finally, my colleague and I began walking toward our cars, followed by the four men. The security guard who had first spoken to us escorted me to my car. I apologized and he mentioned that the older man was his boss.
He left me at my car. I got in and drove toward the exit. As I was driving down the levels of the parking structure, I saw my escort standing with another uniformed man. I waved and they waved back.
I stopped by the exit, gave the man in the gate my validating parking permit, and left the Horton Plaza parking structure.
My colleague later described what he had experienced:
"The only thing I would add [to the above report] would be (1) more details about the aggressive and hostile attitudes of the plainclothesmen, (2) at one point they said that since there were federal building nearby taking pictures in the plaza was a security risk, and (3) that I was told I would be arrested if I returned in the next 48 hours.
. . .
"The card I got from the man with whom I tried to reason (the one who used the federal buildings nearby argument) identified himself as Brian Levi Zarate, Security Supervisor from "Professional Security Consultants (324 Horton Plaza, San Diego, 92101 with a hand written changed phone number of 619-239-8909 (he crossed out another number his email and cell numbers, but not very well)."
Are these men who they claim to be?
Did they violate my individual rights? Why didn't one ask for my ID?
Why didn't the men confiscate my Holga film or digital memory card?
Why does Westfield not wish to have its attractive mall designs photographed?
Why is there no publicly posted “no photos” policy explaining whatever reasons Westfield may have for such a policy?
If the security agents at Horton Plaza are indeed FBI or Homeland Security, should not they be required to identify themselves when dealing with the public?
Has this country reached the point that artistic endeavors such as taking photographs of non-military public places are prima facie presumed to be terrorist activities which was implied in the comments made to me?
I would appreciate your replying to my email with the answer: Were our rights violated or were we indeed breaking the law?
Thank you for your consideration,
Carole Duebbert, Ph.D.
www.caroleduebbertphotography.com
ADDENDUM
Who are these men?
I googled Westfield/Horton Plaza and under Careers, found a list of their job offering categories.
Check out Westfield's job listings on its website: home page > Careers > Find the job that's right for you > Category pull-down list.
http://www3.recruitingcenter.net/clients/westfield/publicjobs/
Security positions are not mentioned on the public website.
What was I photographing?
You can see two of my photographs of Horton Plaza businesses on my website:
http://carolepix.photium.com/portfolio54627.html
What exactly is the law governing photographing in non-government locations?
I quote from the website www.photosecrets.com:
"Private Property"You can photograph whatever you can freely see. If the public is allowed to enter, then you can take photographs. This includes shopping malls, the lobbies of office buildings, parks, and shops. If a
place is open to the public then permission to enter (and thus photograph) is assumed. However, that permission can be revoked. If you are asked to leave and do not, you are then trespassing, which is a separate issue."
What if a mall security guard says to stop taking photos?
"This comes down to photographing and trespassing being two different things. If a private security
guard asks you to stop taking photos, you do not have to comply; you can still take photos. But if
they ask you leave, then you have to leave, as your permission to enter has been revoked and you
are now trespassing. However, you can take photos while walking out, and you can still publish
those pictures. For more, see trespassing."
"Does the photo NOT include as a significant element a recognizable: person, celebrity, artwork, logo,
trademark, cartoon character, professional sporting event, or view from a paid entrance? [If Yes or No: see below.]
Yes. Congratulations, you have full reasonable use of the photo. Yes, you can use it, publish
it and sell it.
? No. Then you're limited to private and 'fair use' (generally educational, newsworthy but not
money-making or malicious use). So you could probably post the photo on your Web site (as
long as the subject is not private or embarrassing, and the display is not false or misleading).
But you can't sell it as stock photography or use it on the cover of a product ('commercial
use'). To do that, you'd need a "release," a written contract with the property owner. In the
case of people, this is called a 'model release.'"
I would appreciate your replying to my email with the answer: Were our rights indeed violated
or we indeed breaking the law.
Thank you for your consideration,
Carole Duebbert, Ph.D.
www.caroleduebbertphotography.com
Photographers' Rights Violated or Were They Breaking the Law?
Two Local Fine-Art Photographers Escorted out of Horton Plaza by Alleged Homeland Security Employees
by Carole Duebbert
Saturday, April 18, SAN DIEGO: At approximately 11am in Horton Plaza, a man in plain clothes approached me and said that I was being escorted out of Horton Plaza for taking pictures. He said I had been told what the photography policy was, that I had disregarded it and, consequently, that I had to leave Horton Plaza and never come back.
He was correct; I had heard the policy. Approximately an hour before, a security guard (aka a man in uniform) had told a group of us (award-winning fine art photographers) that we could only photograph, if one of us was in the picture.
We went our separate ways and an hour later, I was detained by a man in plain clothes, whom I had never seen before. I didn't ask him for ID. Neither did he ask me for ID.
He said that policy prohibited me from taking pictures of stores and refused to look at the digital images that I had taken of myself reflected in a store window. I don't even recall the name of the store, since that wasn't the subject of my photo.
The man was tall, white-haired, wearing sunglasses and dressed in casual business wear: white shirt, dark slacks, nice shoes (with tassels, though I wasn't paying attention).
I am I am 5'2'', 115 pounds, and was wearing a white top, jeans, white socks, and athletic shoes. I was carrying a camera bag, with a water bottle attached to it, a Canon digital SLR, and a plastic Holga camera.
When I requested that he escort me to the Horton Plaza clock, because the photographers in the group I was with were meeting there at noon, the man agreed. He said that another photographer and security person was also being escorted off the Horton Plaza premises and they would join up with us at the clock.
On the way to there, I started asking what the reason for the photographing policy. He said that businesses did not want to be photographed and since I hadn't adhered to the policy, I must leave.
The word "loitering" also came up. I hadn't bought anything and could thus be considered a loiterer. When I asked permission to buy something, he said no. I was basically a persona non grata and not welcome back.
At the clock, I requested permission to wait for the others in the group. He said he'd wait with us. I started sitting down, since the others weren't due for another 45 minutes.
Another plain-clothed man, who had joined us, said that sitting was not allowed. I got up and said that I wasn't "so young anymore." The white-haired man said that he was twice my age (i.e., what was I complaining about). When I said that I was 58, he said that he was 70 and to "suck it up."
He also gave me a piece of paper containing the Horton Plaza policies. To my recollection, the policies of the plaza were nowhere publicly displayed in the plaza.
Then the other detained photographer and his escort arrived. At this point, facing us were four men: the 70-year-old man; the uniformed man who initially told us the "policy"; another uniformed man, whom I had never seen before; and another plain-clothed man, whom I had also never seen before.
The second plain-clothed man started talking, using words like "Homeland Security and FBI." I don't recall exactly what he said, except that we were in the vicinity of Homeland Security and the FBI.
I didn't ask why this was important. My understanding from what he said was that they were part of Homeland Security; the older plain-clothed man said that I should "look it up" on the web).
My photography colleague had gotten the business card from his escort. I noticed that the white-haired man was responding positively to my colleague, so I stopped talking and made eye contact only to the three young men with him.
Finally, my colleague and I began walking toward our cars, followed by the four men. The security guard who had first spoken to us escorted me to my car. I apologized and he mentioned that the older man was his boss.
He left me at my car. I got in and drove toward the exit. As I was driving down the levels of the parking structure, I saw my escort standing with another uniformed man. I waved and they waved back.
I stopped by the exit, gave the man in the gate my validating parking permit, and left the Horton Plaza parking structure.
My colleague later described what he had experienced:
"The only thing I would add [to the above report] would be (1) more details about the aggressive and hostile attitudes of the plainclothesmen, (2) at one point they said that since there were federal building nearby taking pictures in the plaza was a security risk, and (3) that I was told I would be arrested if I returned in the next 48 hours.
. . .
"The card I got from the man with whom I tried to reason (the one who used the federal buildings nearby argument) identified himself as Brian Levi Zarate, Security Supervisor from "Professional Security Consultants (324 Horton Plaza, San Diego, 92101 with a hand written changed phone number of 619-239-8909 (he crossed out another number his email and cell numbers, but not very well)."
Are these men who they claim to be?
Did they violate my individual rights? Why didn't one ask for my ID?
Why didn't the men confiscate my Holga film or digital memory card?
Why does Westfield not wish to have its attractive mall designs photographed?
Why is there no publicly posted “no photos” policy explaining whatever reasons Westfield may have for such a policy?
If the security agents at Horton Plaza are indeed FBI or Homeland Security, should not they be required to identify themselves when dealing with the public?
Has this country reached the point that artistic endeavors such as taking photographs of non-military public places are prima facie presumed to be terrorist activities which was implied in the comments made to me?
I would appreciate your replying to my email with the answer: Were our rights violated or were we indeed breaking the law?
Thank you for your consideration,
Carole Duebbert, Ph.D.
www.caroleduebbertphotography.com
ADDENDUM
Who are these men?
I googled Westfield/Horton Plaza and under Careers, found a list of their job offering categories.
Check out Westfield's job listings on its website: home page > Careers > Find the job that's right for you > Category pull-down list.
http://www3.recruitingcenter.net/clients/westfield/publicjobs/
Security positions are not mentioned on the public website.
What was I photographing?
You can see two of my photographs of Horton Plaza businesses on my website:
http://carolepix.photium.com/portfolio54627.html
What exactly is the law governing photographing in non-government locations?
I quote from the website www.photosecrets.com:
"Private Property"You can photograph whatever you can freely see. If the public is allowed to enter, then you can take photographs. This includes shopping malls, the lobbies of office buildings, parks, and shops. If a
place is open to the public then permission to enter (and thus photograph) is assumed. However, that permission can be revoked. If you are asked to leave and do not, you are then trespassing, which is a separate issue."
What if a mall security guard says to stop taking photos?
"This comes down to photographing and trespassing being two different things. If a private security
guard asks you to stop taking photos, you do not have to comply; you can still take photos. But if
they ask you leave, then you have to leave, as your permission to enter has been revoked and you
are now trespassing. However, you can take photos while walking out, and you can still publish
those pictures. For more, see trespassing."
"Does the photo NOT include as a significant element a recognizable: person, celebrity, artwork, logo,
trademark, cartoon character, professional sporting event, or view from a paid entrance? [If Yes or No: see below.]
Yes. Congratulations, you have full reasonable use of the photo. Yes, you can use it, publish
it and sell it.
? No. Then you're limited to private and 'fair use' (generally educational, newsworthy but not
money-making or malicious use). So you could probably post the photo on your Web site (as
long as the subject is not private or embarrassing, and the display is not false or misleading).
But you can't sell it as stock photography or use it on the cover of a product ('commercial
use'). To do that, you'd need a "release," a written contract with the property owner. In the
case of people, this is called a 'model release.'"
I would appreciate your replying to my email with the answer: Were our rights indeed violated
or we indeed breaking the law.
Thank you for your consideration,
Carole Duebbert, Ph.D.
www.caroleduebbertphotography.com
